4v4... No-Big Ass Vehicles

I would agree with this, but would suggest allowing nothing bigger then a hog/armadillo since the dillo would be the only transport carrier that GDF have without the Trojan and would still be counterable with the hog.

It's already tough enforcing what we got now. I'll leave it up to Sen and kilo. Though with the correct rockets or field ops you can take it out. Or with a covert with balls to disable it or smoke gernade in front of it or the objective....
:study:

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Though with the correct rockets or field ops you can take it out. Or with a covert with balls to disable it or smoke gernade in front of it or the objective....

Right, but those things would also be true if you had no restrictions. I can totally see how a Desi could pwn on outside objectives and would basically force a member of the opposing team to have to switch to a class that specifically has to deal with it (ie. if there are no other heavies you most likely wouldn't need rocket artillery), with 4v4 having to spare one of your medics or an objective class could make or break a team.

xxcommodusxx wrote:

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Though with the correct rockets or field ops you can take it out. Or with a covert with balls to disable it or smoke gernade in front of it or the objective....

Right, but those things would also be true if you had no restrictions. I can totally see how a Desi could pwn on outside objectives and would basically force a member of the opposing team to have to switch to a class that specifically has to deal with it (ie. if there are no other heavies you most likely wouldn't need rocket artillery), with 4v4 having to spare one of your medics or an objective class could make or break a team.

Not only that, most field ops don't even know how to correctly use the rocket arty or plasma mortar. But any decent Dese pilot knows that once the Dese is targeted, he/she can just cover behind a tree or building. In a map like Salvage, the Dese is almost 100% safe from rocket artillery on the main road, unless you're a noob and you take it on the right side (the hills), then it's easy to kill with rocket artillery. Then you have one or two hypers, plus a tech and basically GDF is no match even if they have more skills in 1:1 fights.

It takes about 3 rockets to kill a Dese if the person inside is not a constructor and doesn't repair it. But, if he's a constructor, there's no way to kill the Desi since he/she can repair the damage from the rockets. Meanwhile, the Dese can just run over infantry or kill the player with the rocket.

oncex wrote:

xxcommodusxx wrote:

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Though with the correct rockets or field ops you can take it out. Or with a covert with balls to disable it or smoke gernade in front of it or the objective....

Right, but those things would also be true if you had no restrictions. I can totally see how a Desi could pwn on outside objectives and would basically force a member of the opposing team to have to switch to a class that specifically has to deal with it (ie. if there are no other heavies you most likely wouldn't need rocket artillery), with 4v4 having to spare one of your medics or an objective class could make or break a team.

Not only that, most field ops don't even know how to correctly use the rocket arty or plasma mortar. But any decent Dese pilot knows that once the Dese is targeted, he/she can just cover behind a tree or building. In a map like Salvage, the Dese is almost 100% safe from rocket artillery on the main road, unless you're a noob and you take it on the right side (the hills), then it's easy to kill with rocket artillery. Then you have one or two hypers, plus a tech and basically GDF is no match even if they have more skills in 1:1 fights.

It takes about 3 rockets to kill a Dese if the person inside is not a constructor and doesn't repair it. But, if he's a constructor, there's no way to kill the Desi since he/she can repair the damage from the rockets. Meanwhile, the Dese can just run over infantry or kill the player with the rocket.

Lets look at the purpose of the rule. 4 on 4 or less on ANY map favors the attacking team. We want the maps to last and not have one side rolling the other. By eliminating the heavies and including the desecrator, the defending team has a decent chance of holding. Field Ops should be utilized and when there are 4 vs 4, there is little chance that an AIT is deployed. I do not care if the Field Ops doesn't know how to deploy- that is a tactical mistake when a team decides as to what classes are spawned.

So let's break down GDF on Canyon and Sewer for the first objective. One Field Ops, One Covert Ops, and 2 Engineers (or one engineer and one soldier who plants on the barricade for Sewer or tubes at the deployables for Canyon). The mistake I always see is three engineers and then one soldier or whatever class the other person picks. The real problem is NOBODY talks during warmup to discuss strategy.

A very good desecrator driver can not survive a planned attack. If there is a covert ops, the covert should deploy radar, and spot the desecrator. The field Ops should deploy rocket artillery and head to the spawn. The engineer should head to the objective and put up an APT or AVT before going to build. Once the covert Ops spots the desecrator, it is his responsibility to disable it and weaken it (third eye camera will reduce life or the desecrator by 50%). The Field Ops needs to communicate with the Covert Ops, the engineers need to communicate with the Field Ops and Covert Ops, and the Covert needs to communicate to everyone. Starting to see the picture here?

The desecrator is not the problem- the lack of communication and teamwork is the problem. As far as I am concerned, the desecrator stays. When is a desecrator available in Salvage? All I can get is a shitty icarus...

Oops, I screwed up, is not salvage, is Ark. Second map of the Northern Europe campaign.

Ok, back to topic:

Senility you make great argument and great points, but there's a flaw. This is a pub server, so in a 4v4 you can have 1-2 not so experience players. The way you have it set up, works great if you have 4 experienced players doing all they have to do to complete the objective. It doesn't take into account a possible noob just using vamps or hammers. Not all player do what they have to do 100% of the time. You can even argue that a covie can take down a dese all by himself by emp'ing the dese using all the nades and spawning as field ops and using a vamp. But who has enough experience and luck to lure the dese close to the spawn? I have done it few times against dese whores like BioSnark and that was only because he was busy killing other gdf to see me coming around the corner.

I do have a different way to plan a 4v4 game and I think other people have also a different way to do it. For you, a covie, field ops and 2 engis for a map like Canyon. But for me a medic, soldier, and 2 engi's is the best set up because the soldier can take care of the hogs and provide cover to the engi's. Hell, you can even have 3 engies plus a really good soldier and go straight to the objective (I have done it before).

Yes, good communication is the foundation of good teamwork, but not all players have a mic. Well, even experienced players sometimes forget to tell the others where the stupid data disk is going in maps like New Jersey.

Well, I made my point. I just thought that mixed-teams (experienced, not so expeinced and noobs) were ok w/out the dese.

Actually not all maps favour the attacker, take the infamous first N/A map. That favors the strogg heavily. The main reason I was for the limits we put in was with that type of map in mind. Think about it, the strogg can go back their main spawn base or alt spawn and pick up the cyclops, another descrator and the tormentor. With gdf only with a titan and trojan, what else is there when you get a dominating flyer (sin11011). Ya there are pro's and con's to everything, but usually it doesn't take too long till get that number 5 person. As a clan we don't have many outstanding fliers to counter stuff, so I think the limits we have are fair, without pissing to many people off. You sure as hell wouldn't want me to fly .

Speaking of flying where's elder been? I don't see many durring my daytimr play hours
:study:

I would guess that elder and his brother are away in college. Of Elf busted his bots.

I tried creating a female one to keep me company and things just... I dont want to talk about it >.<

oncex wrote:

[b]I read your "Nexus" message, the one about 4v4 games and apparently the Desecrator is allowed but not the tank. The Trojan is allowed but compared to the Desecrator, the Trojan is way underpowered. Only a really good Trojan drivers can kill a Deses if the the Dese is being piloted by a noob or if the Dese is damaged. A By a "really good" Trojan driver, I mean, someone like Frizlefry. Even a regular Dese pilot can take down Frizle in a Trojan vs Dese fight. So, in a 4v4 game, the Dese is a BIG advantage for the Strogg. Lets remember that the Trojan is an armor personnel carriers and it's not designed to go against other big vehicles. Yes, the tank is way powerful compared to the Dese's plama cannon BUT a good Dese pilot can survive a close range fight with a tank simply because the tank is clumsy and doesn't move as fast and as easily as the Dese. b][/color]

well some of that is true, but a realy good trojan driver or an okay player can take down the whole other team with a projan which is 4 player on stroog n can also be a good camping vehicles with the AA Rockets n it harder to destroy a trojan then to destroy a dese cuz a dese can be destroy with just 2 rockets ( the trojan 3 ablits), 2 or 3 drenades ( trojan 3 or 4), n 2 grenade from granade launcher (3 plasma from plasma lancher).

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Lets look at the purpose of the rule. 4 on 4 or less on ANY map favors the attacking team. We want the maps to last and not have one side rolling the other. By eliminating the heavies and including the desecrator, the defending team has a decent chance of holding.

Yeah, when I wrote this post I was thinking specifically of Area 22. Desi could really help strogg roll through the mining laser objective and walk the whole team right up to the final obj without any real resistance if it is an experienced driver. This really puts the defending team at a disadvantage. Whatever way you guys go I'm cool, I prefer infantry anyways.

I'm an infantry guy myself. Probably just because I suck in vehicles though.

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I'm an infantry guy myself. Probably just because I suck in vehicles though.

Yeah, I always was med/tech when Team JerK played comp so I never did any practicing with the vehicles (excluding working on my icarus skiing), so I've always been much weaker in the vehicles then on foot.

xxcommodusxx wrote:

Yeah, I always was med/tech when Team JerK played comp so I never did any practicing with the vehicles (excluding working on my icarus skiing), so I've always been much weaker in the vehicles then on foot.

That's you and me both bud. I a pretty darn good med/tech, but in a vehicle I'm pretty much useless. Especially if it flies...

realistically, the only times when there is 5v5 or less is on Canyon. By the time North America campaign is reached or any other map, the server is mid to full populated. Maybe if its real slow might still be 5v5 or less on Sewer

theres no argument that the trojan is the underdog compared to the desi... given the circumstances we have i dont think there is a 100% perfect method to balance shit .. i think the admins came up with a pretty good idea this no heavy's unless 5 on 5 thing. you dont see people ROLLING maps with the desecrator do you? Maybe Whogenfoggin .. but i havent seen him on in ages. the purpose of this rule is to eliminate air whores from rolling underpopulated maps in 5 minutes.
so lets focus on Canyon.

Tormentor - Anansi
Cyclops - Titan

Trojan APC / Bumblebee - Desecrator
Armadillo - Hog
Husky - Icarus

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in a perfect world gdf would have a stronger Trojan but im guessing theres a way to take down the desecrator using infantry and their tools Bumblebee perhaps? since u dont see people rolling maps with the bumblee and since strogg has the dese an gdf the trojan , i would think its fair to say that the bumblee can be used in 4v4 or less? (im not 100% clear on this so correct me if i am wrong admins) Given the right angles the desecrator cannot shoot that far vertically ... so you could easily rape the dese if you got in the bumblebee and started minigunning shit from 1000 feet

Sorry, I had been assuming that the bee was out of play as well. The bee combined with the trojan is more then enough vehicle firepower to prevent the desi from becoming a deciding factor.

You still assume that most players are good with the trojan and the bee. So a regular desi driver is keeping busy 2 GDF (regular trojan & bee drivers/pilots). Then you have 3 extra strogg, 1 has a vio to fry all apt's and the other two have hypers... I still don't see how this is balanced O_o Balanced for me is; Husky, Icarus, Armadillo, and Hog, because then you can have infantry game only where only skills count. Even if the GDF has a vehicle whore, a competent desi driver can take the trojan down while the an obli keeps busy the bee. But if the Strogg have a vehicle whore, then the desi is undestructable.

It's pretty much irrelevent anyways, server fills up before map ends. If, not oh well. Some don't like the rules, but we allow a lot of other stuff go. Unless they original made the ranked servers able to toggle certain vehicles on/off, it's all at the mercy of the admins and or players.

A valid point, I can only think of maybe twice that I have played through an entire map with less than 5v5 since we started that rule.

Same here- Normally by midpoint on Canyon the server exceeds the 4 vs 4 minimum and the Anansi hoebagging begins.

So my question is, "When are teams going to start voting to kick the players who are just using the Anansi or Tormentor to rake in XP and not help with the objective?"

I don't want to hear any bullshit complaints anymore that teams are stacked when 25% of one team is out chasing XP. Two engineers on the first part of Africa and it takes 10 minutes to park the MCP? Tough shit- your other team mates just screwed you. The successful teams COMMUNICATE with each other, not just rack up XP. The XP comes with successful holds, good defense, or good offense (or repairing a radar 36 times when the other idiots want to take it out more than they want to play the objective).

Rage Quit. Who cares if you take your toys elsewhere? Not me.